‘Our intention was (and is) to talk about the sex and gender issues that concern us in a loving and trusting space.’
Talking points: Fred Langridge and Emma Roberts find common ground for conversation
‘Even deep differences need not divide us.’
Fred is a transgender man; Emma is a lesbian with gender-critical beliefs. We have some experiences in common around gender non-conformity and dysphoria but, in a very polarised topic, we find ourselves on different sides of a big divide. Last year, following discussion in a Quaker Facebook group, we exchanged some messages and agreed to meet in a video call. Our intention was (and is) to talk about the sex and gender issues that concern us in a loving and trusting space.
It was a leap of faith for both of us to come into this dialogue: we’ve both had very difficult encounters with people from ‘the other side’. One thing we share is that, for both of us, being Quaker is absolutely at the core of our selves. This is the common ground on which we meet.
Alongside its widely-shared welcome statement, there is a bit of Minute 31 of Yearly Meeting 2021 that speaks to both of us: ‘We recognise that we need to keep listening and searching together. In an atmosphere of trust, we need to listen, to share our journeys, in silent worship, and in prayer’.
We didn’t start with a specific agenda, but we thought we might find the places where we agreed, and perhaps write an article together about those. After a few meetings, it feels appropriate to share some reflections on the process so far.
Fred
We’ve met online for an hour and a half at a time, beginning with a bit of greeting chat, and some Quaker silence together. We realised early on that the groups and conversations we’re each involved in are so absolutely separated, that it’s helpful to check in about what the current burning issues seem to be in our respective circles. The rest of our conversation has been quite unstructured, often springing from the check-in, and sometimes getting quite deeply into untangling each of our assumptions about what the other might believe.
Some parts of our conversations have been difficult for me – especially where we have conflicting understanding of the facts. There is a huge pushback against trans people’s human rights in the UK at the moment, and, as a trans Quaker, it is distressing to see this reflected in my own community. I’m especially distressed by widespread misinformation leading to misplaced fear for the safety of children and other vulnerable people. These misplaced fears are already leading to restricted access for young people to appropriate healthcare, or even experimenting with names and pronouns.
My own struggle in conversation with Emma is to find the right balance between listening (easy) and challenging (difficult). My instinct is to focus on the overlaps in our understanding and experiences, but I recognise that the conversation is not complete, and I’m not being honest, if I avoid the parts where we disagree.
For me, the fact of our meeting at all, and the nature of our meetings, are the essential things to share. It feels likely that we would still have some big disagreements, however long we continued to meet, but we have felt drawn to reflect on what a manageable, harmonious present might look like. I believe that this time spent listening to one another, making an effort to meet on kinder ground, is of great value.
Emma
For those of us alarmed at how extreme trans activism has become so influential across our education and health systems, the age-old silencing of women and the creation of brand-new taboos have been devastating. Old red lines have been crossed, and crossed again, and the need to express this despair and be heard is existential: it will never simply go away.
I believe that such fundamental issues will only be resolved within loving communities, of inter-generational, local groups of people who care enough to try: communities who are led by a Light stronger than themselves, to be able to hold and contain such pain. So, I made a serious and ongoing commitment to word my deepest concerns in careful language, and to engage Friends widely in conversations. I was delighted when I heard from Fred and we committed to speaking regularly.
One of the things I struggle with is how inadequate ‘just being kind’ is, if it is not based fundamentally in honesty. I find this superficial, and no basis for true intimate friendship. Rather, it can often be unkind. I prefer a maxim of ‘Say what you mean and mean what you say, and please say it as kindly as you can’. This has been called the ‘plain and simple truth’ and if any community can do such a simple thing it is Quaker Meetings.
The plain and simple truth, as I see it, is that it is not humanly possible to change sex. I was in Yearly Meeting in 2021 for Minute 31 and happily align with welcoming and accepting trans people into Quaker communities, and can gladly affirm all as unique, precious children of God. As Fred knows, I cannot extend this to believing it is possible for humans to change sex – but yet it remains possible for us to have an open and enriching dialogue. There are so many areas on which we do agree and can work together. I am deeply concerned right now that, as a community, we have lost so much time in seeking true unity rather than a false community where those who disagree are silenced and excluded.
These conversations with Fred give me hope – I really feel like we are able to ‘walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in each other’.
So what have we found so far?
Conversations with those who agree are certainly easier, but even deep differences need not divide us – although they require us to manage our boundaries wisely. To be listened to with love, among Friends who disagree, but listen anyway, is healing and softening, but does require careful holding. We have sought to balance what we do say with what we refrain from saying, holding each other accountable through an active listening style that never lapses into rescuing a perceived victim.
What do such gentle conversations look like? Well they don’t go too far, too fast. They stay open to hearing views you don’t agree with, needing enough courage to stay in that discomfort without over-reacting. Sometimes silence or not responding in that moment is all you can manage. This is truly an issue which requires of us all four testimonies: peacefulness, equality, truthfulness and simplicity. Let us try what love can do.
Comments
Thank you so much, Emma and Fred, both for engaging in this dialogue and for sharing your experiences of it. I hope that Quakers as a wider community can, as Fred puts it, “reflect on what a manageable, harmonious present might look like” - and actively work towards it.
By ruthvwilkinson@btinternet.com on 4th January 2024 - 14:04
Wonderful. Exactly what Quakers should be doing in this conflict, instead of excluding Friends for saying such things.
By Anne & Rob Wade on 4th January 2024 - 16:28
This was a difficult conversation 20 years ago. My aha! moment came when I realized that I did not need to understand; all that was required of me was to embrace all F/friends with love and acceptance without exception.
By MaryPags on 5th January 2024 - 17:40
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